54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

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54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby Pe11e » Wed May 27, 2015 3:29 pm

I'm trying very hard in the past two days to see the difference between the two bitrates, in various conditions. This is with D3100.

First I did a good test. Recorded a 20 seconds shot on a tripod with 29mbps bitrate. Then while the camera is still on a tripod, I updated the firmware to 54mps version, and took the exact same shot with same shutter speed/aperture. Imported both clips in Adobe Premiere and analyzed them for an hour, with very extreme color correction and unsharp mask that will show artefacts with extreme settings, and I was able to see the differences BARELY, if any. I've lost my eyes looking for differences. At the end this is the result - a bit sharper details at 54mbps, but barely visible, minor differences are visible only if you are comparing the pixels for like 20 seconds. Same loss of details with extreme color correction in my tests, maybe 5% more details in shadow areas. Noise is more natural in 54mbps videos logically, but also more noticable because of less compression artifacts, but I must test higher ISO noise more in the following days, it's rainy here in the past two days, the test shots are not good with tons of rain drops. Huge advantage with 29mbps clips is that I can review them while filming on site, did I focused well, are my tracking shots stable, should I take the same shot again, etc. With 54mbps clips I can only guess while looking at LiveView during recording did I took a good shot, or take 2 or 3 same shots just in case.

Also, for me most important thing with D3100 and possibly with other low end DSLR's with movie mode posibility is - don't over-analyze clips! Why? Because 99% of your viewers will not pay attention how sharp the video is, and how much noise is there (unless it is ugly ISO 800 noise). you will certainly do a proper color grading, without any extreme correction, no need for it if an original shot is properly recorded (good exposure and light), so IMHO there is no need for 54 or more mbps mumbo jumbo.

I know that in your eyes 54mbps clips are slightly sharper and you have in theory a bigger freedom with color grading, but at the end final video quality is the same. You know what, record very short film with 29mbps and then with 54mbps, show both versions to any viewer, and I bet you'll get the same answer every time: "Frankly, I don't see any difference!"

What's are your experiences guys?
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Re: 54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby blickblocks » Thu May 28, 2015 11:49 am

Since a huge amount of that added bandwidth goes into encoding motion, shooting some pastoral on a tripod is not going to yield a ton of obvious improvements.

I shoot people moving on stages with huge changes in composition and lighting, and there is a noticeable improvement when shooting at 54mbps. I've had footage at the standard 24mbps absolutely destroyed by strobing lights before, and I'm not talking about banding but actual motion artifacts.

As you said, the higher bitrate shows the actual sensor noise more clearly. This is good because we can run more sophisticated noise reduction filters as needed in post. More data is better data! Get a good monitor where you can keep an eye on your exposure (with hard numbers via waveform or histogram not just visually) as well as focus. If you're shooting performances you can't always retake a shot anyways.
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Re: 54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby Pe11e » Thu May 28, 2015 2:19 pm

blickblocks wrote:Since a huge amount of that added bandwidth goes into encoding motion, shooting some pastoral on a tripod is not going to yield a ton of obvious improvements.

I shoot people moving on stages with huge changes in composition and lighting, and there is a noticeable improvement when shooting at 54mbps. I've had footage at the standard 24mbps absolutely destroyed by strobing lights before, and I'm not talking about banding but actual motion artifacts.

As you said, the higher bitrate shows the actual sensor noise more clearly. This is good because we can run more sophisticated noise reduction filters as needed in post. More data is better data! Get a good monitor where you can keep an eye on your exposure (with hard numbers via waveform or histogram not just visually) as well as focus. If you're shooting performances you can't always retake a shot anyways.


Well yeah, I somehow forgot about shots with high motion. I was on a lake few days ago and I took a shot of water grass - so many compression artefacts from grass moving on waves, disaster. I guess it would be a lot less visible at 54mbps. Again, only problem I have with that patch is unavailability to see the shot later on camera (playback). I'm building a DIY slider these days, and a playback option is a must with non-motorized sliders.

I'm not tempted to try and test 64mbps patch on my D3100...
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Re: 54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby Simeon » Thu May 28, 2015 4:30 pm

Pe11e wrote:I'm not tempted to try and test 64mbps patch on my D3100...


That's an odd thing to say. What do you mean by that statement? all you have said is "I have things I've not said, that lead me to believe not doing something that only impacts me is the best cause of action".
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Re: 54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby Pe11e » Thu May 28, 2015 11:22 pm

Simeon wrote:
Pe11e wrote:I'm not tempted to try and test 64mbps patch on my D3100...


That's an odd thing to say. What do you mean by that statement? all you have said is "I have things I've not said, that lead me to believe not doing something that only impacts me is the best cause of action".


Oh, now I saw that I made a typo! I wanted to say that I'm NOW tempted to try and test 64mbps patch. I want to compare 54 vs. 64 just from curiosity.

Cheers
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Re: 54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby LPowell » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:22 am

Pe11e wrote:Well yeah, I somehow forgot about shots with high motion.

Here's a sample of what you missed:

https://nikonhacker.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1898
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Re: 54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby Fried Crispy » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:52 am

How are you guys going about onsite playback if the camera no longer displays it in the 3" LED?
Has anyone tried a tablet hat does 1920 x 1180?
Is the picture from the HDMI accurate? I noticed all the cheap monitors I used with the RCA jacks were dimmed with gradients, yellow, and almost worthless.
I'm looking for some solutions for about 4 cameras, so cost is a huge concern.
Outdoor sun issues?
HDMI inputs versus USB?
Does anyone have some experience with this that they could share?

I am currently considering these, just to be able to play something back and not go broke:

http://www.amazon.com/Tontec%C2%AE-Reso ... nitor+hdmi
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Re: 54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby LPowell » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:59 am

Fried Crispy wrote:How are you guys going about onsite playback if the camera no longer displays it in the 3" LED?

I just pop the SD card into a Windows laptop with a built-in SD card reader. A Mac or iPad would serve just as well, if only they had SD card slots...
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Re: 54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby Fried Crispy » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:13 pm

I was trying to resist that because my SD cards seem to do better if they are not moved and introduced to other machines. Thank you for mentioning your work around. How do you feel about the new 54 Mbps video?
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Re: 54mbps vs. 29mbps with playback

Postby LPowell » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:41 am

Fried Crispy wrote:I was trying to resist that because my SD cards seem to do better if they are not moved and introduced to other machines. Thank you for mentioning your work around. How do you feel about the new 54 Mbps video?

54Mbps is great for fast motion and panning, but at that rate you're limited to 10-minute clips. For longer takes, 29Mbps is a good compromise that allows in-camera viewing.
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